|
|
 |
Author |
|
| Message | |
|
Behemoth
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds
|
|
|
|
 |
dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
|
|
|
|
|
Jonnyboy
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.
|
|
|
|
|
tahir
Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45665
Location: Essex
|
|
|
|
|
dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 27, 06 4:37 pm Post subject: |
 
|
| Jonnyboy wrote: |
| But his point has some validity, where is the european equivalent of the Insight or Prius? |
The Insight is an oddity. I researched the heck out of it and nearly bought one. Its an engineering jewel. (Accounting in large part for its high insurance group.) BUT its actually not a very good hybrid. Disable the IMA and it returns, near as dammit, the same fuel usage - although with lower performance.
The Mk2 Prius is a rather better hybrid. It makes more use of the electric motors (although it does actually *depend* on them to move at all - such is the nature of the CVT transmission that blends petrol and electric) and it looks after its batteries better.
Which is why no one remembers the Honda Civic Hybrid. It ain't as good as the Mk2 Prius. (And I'm a Honda believer.)
Unfortunately, these are very expensive vehicles. For what they offer - including their 'green' credentials.
Compare the Prius with the Audi A2 diesel. The Audi has better fuel economy, and very very nearly as good CO2 emissions. It costs less than 2/3 of the Prius price - and you don't get a Government Grant to persuade you to buy one. It offers almost as much interior space, while taking up much less road space - and yet it doesn't qualify for congestion charge exemption (£10/year instead of nearly that much per day) like the Prius...
My guess is that you could reasonably expect to get 300,000 miles out of an A2 diesel. (Its never going to rust, and that diesel is long-lived.) Does anyone expect to see 300,000 on their Prius?
Oh yeah and Prof... which one will run, today, unmodified and manufacturer approved on 100% Biofuel? Yes, its the Audi... |
|
|
|
|
Jonnyboy
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.
|
|
|
|
|
dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 28, 06 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
My objection is to the completely misleading BBC headline.
But before dealing with that, I think it worth commenting, in general rather than specific terms on the issue Jonnyboy has raised.
Petrol/electric hybrids are an **efficiency** technology. Not a fuel technology. All the energy originates from the petrol. Energy that would be dumped to waste when braking is captured into batteries and reused on subsequent acceleration.
That is *one* aspect of efficiency. And it is *the* aspect that Toyota have focussed on. And are currently capitalising on by using the technology to 'greenwash' their big Lexus 4x4's and licensing the technology to Ford in the USA for use on their big 4x4's.
European manufacturers have focussed on *different* efficiency technologies. They have developed mass production engines to efficiencies generally rather better than the Japanese. They have adopted lighter construction methods without sacrificing crash safety. And they have produced many brilliant designs to maximise the useful interior space while minimising the exterior vehicle size - and, the tricky bit, wrapping that interior in a wrapping that is both aerodynamically efficient and appealing. I'd also suggest that making a vehicle have a longer life is a more efficient use of the resources invested in its construction.
The Prius doesn't have a particularly efficient petrol engine, large interior in a small exterior, or aerodynamics to rival such as the A2.
There is no reason that multiple advanced technologies shouldn't be combined.
The A2 demonstrates that these technologies can produce equivalent efficiency to the 50% more expensive Prius.
Hybrid tech can give an excellent efficiency improvement. But it does NOT of itself make a 'green' vehicle - which is my objection to hybrid SUVs. The great american public still want bigger/faster/more toys, but are being offered 'hybrid' to make bigger/faster/etc OK and green. It ain't. Folk need to be steered towards smaller, longer lasting, truly efficient vehicles, errr, like the A2, the Citroen C1, Fiat Panda... not Lexus hybrid 4x4's.
As a technology, hybrid is particularly suited to stop/start driving. But its usefulness is currently limited by the maximum rate at which the batteries can be charged (it can't recover much energy from 'sharp' braking). This will change in the next few years with 'nanotech' batteries - and then the hybrid concept should get much more application.
As regards the BBC article headline about manufacturers and 'green' fuels - the only green road transport fuels for the planning future (I regard 'foreseeable future', as an oxymoron) are Biofuels. Without any need for developing new technology, and at very little extra cost, petrol engine manufacturers could be producing alcohol-ready products. Virtually all todays diesels are fine for Biodiesel, but many manufacturers - notably the Japanese - are reluctant to certify them as such.
Hydrogen is not a true 'fuel' as an energy *source*. It is *very* like a battery - an energy store. And how 'clean' or 'green' Hydrogen might be depends entirely on the source of the energy to produce the Hydrogen.
I regret to say that the Prof's appeal for government funding of his researches could have been made in a much less gratuitously offensive manner - and could have been better reported by the BBC. |
|
|
|
|
puffedpride
Joined: 05 Nov 2005
Posts: 300
Location: bristol
|
|
|
|
|
dpack
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46192
Location: yes
|
|
|
|
|
dougal
Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent
|
|
|
|
|
Jonnyboy
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
its 'phased out' already in preparation for a replacement model due later this year.
View Latest Posts