One mans way of making Chorizo

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One mans way of making Chorizo
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Bodger

Joined: 23 May 2006
Posts: 13524

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 08 6:27 pm Post subject:
and by the way, I'm not kidding when I say the bloke has been on the phone to me.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 08 6:30 pm Post subject:

cab wrote:

dougal wrote:

As I remarked upthread, it is a mistake to confuse the surface mould ("bloom") with the culture providing the protective *internal* acidification.
They are very different bacteria.

The blook is mould, its fungus. It isn't a bacterium

My sloppy terminology while rushing! Edited above.
However you are actually reinforcing my point.
Surface mould and internal bacteria are VERY different.
Hence transferring the "bloom" from a cured sausage to one starting drying is not an ideal way of transferring the *acidifying* culture !!
But that is what HFW advises in his book - according to Jonnyboy.
This does NOT seem to be HFW's "specialist subject".

cab wrote:

Quote:

The surface moulds do protect against 'bad' moulds - but they actually eat the lactic acid that the internal acidophilus has produced!
Therefore a natural 'bloom' is an indication that acidification has occurred.

An oversimplification; the low pH and lactic acid content encourages the growth of fungi that cure the sausage, and the lactic acid production itself helps preserve the culture... And of course theh lower pH and salt content combined help too.

There is a symbiosis.

Butcher-Packer state that their surface mould culture reduces the sausage acidity.
I'm trying to clarify to Bodger, and seemingly HFW as well, that this is *different* to the acid-increasing action of the culture for internal protection against future botulism poisoning.
And simplification would have helped clarification!

Behemoth

Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 19023
Location: Leeds

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 08 6:39 pm Post subject:

Curing on the inside of the sausage which overtime may be the environment for the growth of boutlism in the absence of N.

Bloom on the outside, external influences related to the environment where curing takes place. The wrong type of mold can ruin the sausage an make it unpalatable but not necessarily poisonous.

There is some interaction between the two but one does not contol the other.

So if you want to be sure your food is safe use N. if you want to take a risk, don't bother.

Watch out for the wrong kind of mold as it can indicate your drying conditions are too humid for the procees to be carried out effectively and deliver a palatable product.

Bottom line is that the risk is Bodgers until the day he croaks, which may be as a result of eating dodgy sausage or not.

Dougal's advice is good, like the green cross code which you can choose to ignore.

Jonnyboy

Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 23956
Location: under some rain.

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 08 8:04 pm Post subject:

bodger wrote:

and by the way, I'm not kidding when I say the bloke has been on the phone to me.

That's great, I'm glad to read that he takes the concerns of people who are actually taking the time to keep these crafts going seriously.

However, I would still advise you (and Hugh!) to consider carefully the detailed, well thought out and well intentioned advice offered to you by Cab and Dougal.

Pilsbury

Joined: 13 Dec 2004
Posts: 5645
Location: East london/Essex

Posted: Tue Apr 01, 08 8:09 pm Post subject:

bodger wrote:

"Almost Always" ?

Don't you think we would have heard just a teency weency little bit of something if ANYONE had poisoned themselves using HFWs recipe for Chorizo ?

unfortunatly it can take a while for the symptoms to show themselves and as you mentioned the recipe is provided for home making not commercial use, if you made some sausages or burgers for that matter and ate one then 24-48 hours later started feeling unwell and threw up would you report it to the EHO?
The recipe will in 999/1000 cases be fine but there is the slim chance that somethuing could go wrong, I would eat your Chorizo and not worry about it but if it was a comercial venture it would not pass a HACCP ( Hazard analsis and Critical control points) as there is a POSSABLE hazard and all steps available to avoid it have not been taken.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 08 8:13 am Post subject:

bodger wrote:

"Almost Always" ?

Don't you think we would have heard just a teency weency little bit of something if ANYONE had poisoned themselves using HFWs recipe for Chorizo ?

No. Food poisoning stats are complex and bizarre, and even those who are microbe muppets like me (I follow the news feeds for diseases, illnesses etc.) would be unlikely to spot that.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 08 8:18 am Post subject:

dougal wrote:

Oh, that does work though. Very often, but it isn't a foolproof methiod by any means.

Remember, you will have strains of Lactobacillus present anyway. The reason for spiking with more is to ensure that the right fungi grow on the surface of the sausages. Another way of encouraging thatis to ensure that there are plenty of spores present. It'll work very often, but in my opinion to cure sausages without either inoculum or instead saltpetre is a needless increase in risk.

Quote:

Butcher-Packer state that their surface mould culture reduces the sausage acidity.

Yeah, but with respect, thats written for butchers, who have a vast range of specialist knowledge that I have a huge amount of respect for, but they aren't microbiologists. The statement isn't incorrect, its just rather a simplification.

Quote:

I'm trying to clarify to Bodger, and seemingly HFW as well, that this is *different* to the acid-increasing action of the culture for internal protection against future botulism poisoning.
And simplification would have helped clarification!

Yes, I guess so.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 08 10:19 am Post subject:

cab wrote:

dougal wrote:

Surface mould and internal bacteria are VERY different.
Hence transferring the "bloom" from a cured sausage to one starting drying is not an ideal way of transferring the *acidifying* culture !!

Oh, that does work though. Very often, but it isn't a foolproof methiod by any means.

Remember, you will have strains of Lactobacillus present anyway ... but in my opinion to cure sausages without either inoculum or instead saltpetre is a needless increase in risk.

IMHO, if *relying* on acidification by culture (no nitrate/nitrite), then the responsible thing to do is to do your very best to make sure that the culture is effective.
In turn that means helping to spread it throughout the inside of the sausage.
AND giving the culture both a deliberate warm 'incubation' treatment, and specific food (such as a little of a sugar - dextrose is often advised, presumably to minimise sweetening). Although Cab's posted recipe seems to omit these latter stages, I trust he'll agree that (regardless of his own techniques) they are part of the orthodox method.

I think it would be wrong to suggest that a quick wipe to transfer traces of surface mould is, by itself, an adequate method of countering the risk of the most serious form of food poisoning, botulism.

It bears repeating that this potentially fatal poisoning is *not* detectable by smell, taste or appearance. You wouldn't know from looking or eating that there was anything wrong.
"Silent but deadly."
This is the crucial reason why it is important to remove the possibility of the problem, rather than to "try it and see".
You can't tell until you've actually been poisoned.

cab wrote:

dougal wrote:

Butcher-Packer state that their surface mould culture reduces the sausage acidity.

The statement isn't incorrect, its just rather a simplification.

Quote:

And simplification would have helped clarification!

Yes, I guess so.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 08 10:21 am Post subject:

Here is a document about C. Botulinum (covering food, wmd and Botox) by
Professor Mike Peck, Head of the Food Safety and Computational Microbiology Group, Scientific Programme Leader in the Food Safety Science Division, Institute of Food Research, Norwich, (who surely ought to be regarded as authoritative) that should be of great interest to anyone following this thread
https://www.sfam.org.uk/pdf/features/gbugly.pdf

The emphasis is mine.

Professor Peck wrote:

... rapid treatment ... has led to a reduction
in the fatality rate (now approximately 10% of cases).
This proportion is still high for a foodborne illness.
...
The name “botulism” was given to a disease reported in
central Europe in the nineteenth century that was
frequently associated with consumption of blood
sausage; the word ‘botulism’ being derived from the Latin
botulus meaning sausage.
At the end of the nineteenth century, Emile van Ermengem
first isolated a causative organism (initially called
Bacillus botulinus) from home made raw salted ham
and the spleen of a man who later died of botulism. This
outbreak, in Belgium, affected 23 musicians (three fatally).
...
Through the understanding and implementation of
effective control measures, the incidence of botulism is today
generally much lower than in the early part of the twentieth
century. Foodborne botulism involving commercial
processing is uncommon, but the consequences can be
severe. Most cases are now associated with home-
prepared foods, when known control measures have not
been implemented. For example, in Poland from
1984-1987, there were 1301 outbreaks reported giving
1791 cases, of which 46 were fatal.
...
Many other countries have lower, but significant rates of
foodborne botulism. For example, over the past 20
years, approximately 35 cases have been reported annually in
Italy, with many associated with home-prepared
vegetables in oil.
Approximately 25 cases have been reported annually in
France and Germany, and frequently involved home/farm
prepared hams. ...
Approximately 10 cases have been reported annually in
Spain, and involved home canned vegetables. These
foods are not generally prepared at home in the UK,
consequently the incidence of foodborne botulism is lower.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 08 10:39 am Post subject:

dougal wrote:

IMHO, if *relying* on acidification by culture (no nitrate/nitrite), then the responsible thing to do is to do your very best to make sure that the culture is effective.

I agree. I remember s talking about this to the Sardinian lady who used to lodge with us, I asked her whether for home use farmers out in Italy still rely on mold getting on to the sausages without acifification. She thought I must be mental, and hilighted the importance of adding a good culture and how everyone she knows (she's a Sardinian farm girl) who makes their own sausages adds a culture.

Quote:

In turn that means helping to spread it throughout the inside of the sausage.
AND giving the culture both a deliberate warm 'incubation' treatment, and specific food (such as a little of a sugar - dextrose is often advised, presumably to minimise sweetening). Although Cab's posted recipe seems to omit these latter stages, I trust he'll agree that (regardless of his own techniques) they are part of the orthodox method.

A sugar source is often part of the orthodox commercial approach but I'm wary of that for home use, you run the risk of almost ensilaging the meat if you're not careful.

Quote:

I think it would be wrong to suggest that a quick wipe to transfer traces of surface mould is, by itself, an adequate method of countering the risk of the most serious form of food poisoning, botulism.

It bears repeating that this potentially fatal poisoning is *not* detectable by smell, taste or appearance. You wouldn't know from looking or eating that there was anything wrong.
"Silent but deadly."
This is the crucial reason why it is important to remove the possibility of the problem, rather than to "try it and see".
You can't tell until you've actually been poisoned.

All true. Yet the risk is still not that great. But, frankly, when curing sausages I choose to remove that risk as best I can by adding bacteria.

dougal

Joined: 15 Jan 2005
Posts: 7184
Location: South Kent

Posted: Wed Apr 02, 08 11:22 am Post subject:

cab wrote:

...
All true. Yet the risk is still not that great. But, frankly, when curing sausages I choose to remove that risk as best I can by adding bacteria.

We are agreed that it isn't a big chance, however, the consequences can be so serious that it is well worth taking the simple steps (curing salts and/or culture) to effectively eliminate that risk.

Its very hard to say what the chance might be if one doesn't take precautions -- not least because as Cab says people that now know how to protect themselves DO use culture and/or curing salts.
To get an idea of the chance, I think you'd have to look at historical info -- before people really knew how to prevent it.
And, as the Prof says in the PDF linked above, it used to be *frequent*.
Hence, I'd probably estimate it as a significant chance with raw cured sausage. Its not just a matter of a theoretical possibility.

But whatever the odds from going unprotected, its simple to do it safely.
As with other stuff...

ros

Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 2469
Location: Beds

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 08 9:41 am Post subject:

OK, so I've read all the warnings, looked for supplies of cures and cultures and would love to have a go at chorizo (we eat a lot of the Hungarian version which I think is called Gulay-e ( but goodness knows how you spell it))

Is it too late in the year to find somewhere cool enough to hang them to dry? I was thinking of hanging them in the garage but expect that it will get too warm in there at some point and it isn't completely dark.

- wait until the autumn?

Is it possible to hot smoke sausage for slicing? I have a table top smoker which is great for fish and I've used for duck breasts, but it really is Hot smoke.

thanks

kevin.vinke

Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 1304
Location: Niedersachsen, Germany

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 08 10:29 am Post subject:
A very interesting discussion which clarifies and puts a lot into perspective. A question though reference frozen meats. Firstly using frozen to make cured sausages. Secondly can a previously frozen sausage then be hot smoked and refrozen?

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 08 10:57 am Post subject:

ros wrote:

If you have a cellar, you'll be fine. If you have a cool outhuse or larder then you'll probably be fine. It could go wrong, it probably won't. If the weather starts to warm up a bit then go for a nitrate/nitrite cure rather than a lactobacillus/fungus one.

Quote:

Is it possible to hot smoke sausage for slicing? I have a table top smoker which is great for fish and I've used for duck breasts, but it really is Hot smoke.

thanks

Hot smoking is a cooking method rather than a curing one, but theres nothing at all wrong with hot smoking sausages to eat. I tend to use plain old bangers and hot smoke them to eat with barbecued food.

cab

Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 32429

Posted: Fri Apr 04, 08 10:59 am Post subject:

kevin.vinke wrote:

A question though reference frozen meats. Firstly using frozen to make cured sausages. Secondly can a previously frozen sausage then be hot smoked and refrozen?

The danger with using frozen meat isn't the freezing process, its more the problem with how long it takes to freeze and defrost, thats all extra time for things to go off. If I had to, and knew I'd be pushed for time, I'd go with cutting the meat up first, freezing on trays, then bagging it up to make into sausages later; spread the meat out to defrost more quickly, that should minimise risk.

And of course cooked food can be refrozen; so, again, if its a hot smoker then you're just cooking it, its like taking a bit of meat out of the freezer, cooking it, and freezing the leftovers. Shouldn't be any problem with that.

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