yvon chouinard, eco hero

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yvon chouinard, eco hero
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Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 22 10:25 am Post subject:

There's an interesting point being made that we maybe shouldn't embrace this with open arms. I think it's an article on medium.
Essentially, just because we prefer his politics, we probably shouldn't applaud him using the same tactics as all the other billionaires that want to maintain control of a huge ledger sheet, but to avoid hundreds of millions in taxes. And that just because we agree with the politics that will be espoused, we shouldn't just blindly applaud the means, which is essentially not much different than the dark money political funding that has been destroying America since "citizens united", and of course all of the international knock on effects from that.
In other words, this type of procedure concentrates political power in the hands of the economically elite. We maybe shouldn't be overly excited just because this is the first time it's one we think we'll agree with....

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 22 10:34 am Post subject:
whatever the means, even a semi accidental success at making money and then hands off after that is acceptable as this use of the gains seems ok, at least to me

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 22 10:40 am Post subject:
https://sylvanaqua.medium.com/patagonia-is-accelerating-the-end-of-democracy-964436d72f52

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 22 10:55 am Post subject:
i have no faith in the enemy's good will, if a part of their resources can be diverted to good things etc

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 22 10:56 am Post subject:
I think the biggest take away is that no one should have this pathway available to then, regardless of how much we prefer them taking the pathway than others

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 22 1:55 pm Post subject:

Wealth and power are maintained by not selling assets, but instead by sucking then around.
The new Patagonia move will probably do good things, but the US has been hobbled in it's ability to do good things by the rich controlling government (always using the costs as a reason to not pass comprehensive social safety nets, climate legislation, etc)

https://www.propublica.org/article/the-secret-irs-files-trove-of-never-before-seen-records-reveal-how-the-wealthiest-avoid-income-tax

We should have billions or trillions more to throw about moving us toward a clean energy future. Instead we'll get lobbying

Mistress Rose

Joined: 21 Jul 2011
Posts: 15948

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 22 6:59 am Post subject:

One thing about trusts is that ordinary people can use them too. In the UK, estate duty starts at a pretty low level, so if you own your own house , not mansion, in some parts of the country and pass it on to an only child they get stung for estate duty as the residual legatee. Our solicitor managed to reduce the estate duty I had to pay when my parents died, by perfectly legal and ethical means, but it was still a good bit of money. If he hadn't, I would have had to pay over the rate I was paying for income tax.

Yes, very rich people should pay more, but sadly they can pay for accountants and lawyers to hide, manipulate and otherwise reduce tax burdens, even if things like trusts are not used.

sgt.colon

Joined: 27 Jul 2009
Posts: 7380
Location: Just south of north.

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 22 8:31 am Post subject:
It's nice that such people exist and what an very altruistic thing to do.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 22 10:10 am Post subject:
Here in the US, estate taxes don't start until you're well into the millions. I don't think I know anyone personally that would be affected by them.

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 22 11:04 am Post subject:
More follow up from Chris Newman. He's a polarizing guy, and likes to be. You don't have to agree with him, but he does usually bring a different perspective to topics than I see elsewhere: https://sylvanaqua.medium.com/how-yvon-chouinard-bought-goodwill-for-billionaires-for-next-to-nothing-c011bc3af93d

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 22 4:57 am Post subject:
insider opinion from a global ecosystem academic

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45665
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 22 3:07 pm Post subject:
Slim there are plenty of millionaires and billionaires that choose not to do the same, I'd much rather there were more wealthy people like Mr Chouinard

Slim

Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Posts: 6612
Location: New England (In the US of A)

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 22 3:43 pm Post subject:

Pointing this out is a bit like emailing your mp. Yes, he's doing better than some, but it should still be pointed out that he's using a process that shouldn't even exist. I prefer that he's using the money and power this way than for furthering the climate status quo, but it has to be framed within the context that this shouldn't be possible for anyone - at least at this scale - and that we cannot hope for individual philanthropists to fix problems that need large comprehensive solutions immediately, things that only government can do.

I prefer what he's done to what he's could have done, but it's dangerous to suggest that this a solution

tahir

Joined: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 45665
Location: Essex

Posted: Thu Sep 22, 22 3:49 pm Post subject:
Absolutely not a solution, I know, it's just better than the alternatives

dpack

Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 46188
Location: yes

Posted: Fri Sep 23, 22 7:56 am Post subject:

i was not saying solution, but that much like gates and malaria etc i recon any resources given to make bad things better rather than the alternatives is ok and can be useful

the concentration of power, of which money is a sub category, is in general bad for most lifeforms.
there are a few folk who decide to redistribute what they have(often gained by mostly by good luck with a bit of effort at and genius for recruiting skilled staff after the first successes)

that power /money can be so concentrated for a few and lacking for most is wrong, most with the money and power will resist any threat to that, a few gain power or money and use it as though it was fairly shared, they are quite rare and should be encouraged

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